Beyond Romance - How to Write Dynamic Non-Romantic Relationships That Give All The Feels

Join Drake and Marie as they discuss how to write real non-romantic relationships.
 
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Transcript

Drake: I'm going to go fight a demon that may eat me. Why the crap Now I have to do it because I was born to a family of witches that, like, literally were cursed.

Drake: And if I don't do this, I will be a slave to this demon as an adult. Okay, great. Why are you coming with me? Yeah.

Marie: What's your stakes in this thing?

Drake: You're just.

Drake: Like. I just, like, Drake enough. I'm not going to go. It's going to be awesome.

Marie: like? Yeah I'm going to go carry water. So Drake and fight a.

Drake: What?

Drake: Releasing your inner dragon.

Marie: Okay, so, Drake, what do you think is the critical part of writing a non romantic relationship?

Drake: Well, I want to start by saying I don't think people give credit to non romantic relationships as far as their difficulty. I actually think non romantic relationships are harder to pull off than romantic relationships because everybody wants to fall in love. But when you don't have that component, I think that actually makes it much more difficult. I mean, for me, everything centers around the fact that where I think people fail the most on creating their secondary and tertiary characters is they treat them as secondary and tertiary characters.

Drake: And I preach this all the time. Every character in your story, even the bartender who only says, three coppers, please, and that's it, you never see them again. He's actually the hero and his story. It's just that his story intersected with this story by just blipping in for just the briefest of a moment. But still, I want to know a little bit more.

Drake: But now I'm not going to waste a huge amount of time. Am I going to make an entire character portfolio and go through his back story and all the different things? But I want to know what he wants in that moment. You know, maybe. You know, and I have this exercise where I tell people, just talk to them.

Drake: Just sit down and talk with him. So I might sit down with that partner and like, you know, Hey, you're only in the story for a second. You say three coppers and that's it. But, like, what do you want today? You know what I want? I want Sally. She's just been crawling up my rear, and she's just. I want to fire her.

Drake: That's what I want. I'm tired of Sally. She's not doing her job. She was late again today, like, because then even just that little bit, that's going to change how I run that character when it comes to, you know, Three coppers, Please. Just knowing that little bit or, you know, Actually, you know what? I just met this. This dude, and I'm so much in love with him, and.

Drake: And it's hard, you know, in this society for two men to find each other and, you know, whatever. And, like, I'm just happy, just, just, like, really, really happy. And it's like, then you're like, okay, that's a completely different thing. I don't think people do that. They don't treat their secondary, especially their tertiary characters, as real living characters.

Drake: They're props.

Drake: And I think if you treat them as a prop, they're going to feel like a prop.

Marie: And I think that that is probably one of the biggest things you have to do. Very much so. If you're going to pull off any kind of non romantic relationships, both sides of the equation, the the point of view character and the friend or the parent or the mentor or whatever else it is need to be fully fleshed out characters with their own desires that mustn't always align.

Drake: Especially when you get into the secondary characters. Yeah.

Marie: It needs they need to have differences of opinion. They need to have different strengths. They need to be complete characters, preferably with their own little arcs. And that, I think, takes me to one of my most important things. Friendships or any relationship, actually needs its own arc. It needs to have a beginning, and you need to know what that beginning is that they start.

Marie: You know, if it's a friendship that the two people start as friends or were they enemies or were they acquaintances, you know, what is the start? And then where are they going to end up? Maybe they end up as enemies. Maybe they end up as best friends. Maybe they end up in a friends. Maybe it's a friends, two lovers, and they end up as lovers.

Drake: Maybe two hands as they drive off a cliff to their deaths.

Drake: Exactly.

Marie: It can be. But whatever the end is, you need to know what that end is. And then you need to have an arc, as you would have for a character or a story.

Drake: Just to add to that 200% agree with all of that. The only thing I want to add is you need to know two things from the beginning, where they're at, at the story's beginning, and then where their friendship actually kind of became. So many people are like, they're just best friends. And that's what they go with.

Drake: They're like, Yeah, no, Sally is just John's best friend. At the beginning of the story. It's like, okay, why did they get together? Why? You know, because if Sally's going to be the secondary character. What's the history that has created this friendship? Because that is going to change how you run their relationship. And also it's going to give you insight into how that arc is going to happen as they're moving through it.

Drake: So while I do think that what I said at the beginning with your tertiary characters is a must and also the only hints required. Just really, you're in my story for this moment because you're a tertiary character. What are you doing today? What do you want to accomplish today in this scene that you're in? What is your motivation?

Drake: I don't care who your parents were. I don't care where you came from. I don't care what you're doing. Tomorrow. Like, I don't care about it. But I do want to know where you are, where your head's at now. And I think that's all you need. Secondary characters who are going to be in the story for, you know, chapters, if not from start to finish.

Drake: Those characters, I think you should put as much detail into as you do your main character.

Marie: I agree. I a secondary character is effectively a main character. They are just not the focus character.

Drake: They're not the one telling the story.

Marie: Yeah. Yeah. But they are definitive li like an, an integral, important element that deserves main character energy.

Drake: And I think that's where we're going to focus our discussion on today because I don't really think our discussion is about the relationships with tertiary characters. I think it's about those characters that are more integral now. That being said, maybe Mom is a tertiary character that is going to require a little bit more prep work than the bartender.

Drake: Sure. Mom is only in one scene, maybe two scenes, whatever. So, you know, none of these are hard. You can't just say, all third, you know, tertiary characters are going to be treated this way and all secondary characters in that way.

Marie: Also, bear in mind, we give advice, guys. They're not rules. You can write your story any way you like.

Drake: Yeah.

Marie: You can also build your world any way you like It is okay?

Drake: Yeah.

Drake: So, yeah, that's. But I think that's where most of the things that we're going to talk about, you know, all comes from. I guess before we get into, like, how do we build it? I think we should define what we mean when we talk about the chemistry between characters, the relationship, you can call it chemistry, whatever you want.

Drake: Kind of what that means. So some of the notes that I have are what we're talking about here is the dynamics of their relationship. You know, what is the in every relationship? So we have a lot of different types of relationship. So obviously we're not talking about lovers in that relationship, but there are friend relationships, There are parent child relationships, there are sibling relationships, there are enemy relationships, there are mentor mentee relationships.

Drake: I think the big thing that I always think about is and I know this is a it's a faux pas word in today's world, but there are hierarchies to all relationships. They just are. And sometimes as hierarchies are, we're equal and that's great. Sometimes those hierarchies are. No, no, no. I'm in charge. And you're subordinate. And so I think it's.

Marie: I wouldn't describe it as a hierarchy, because a hierarchy to me implies more of like a societal structure, at least for me. So I would I would describe what you what you're calling I would describe the the dominance relationship between the friends or the power imbalance between the friends.

Drake: Power imbalance? What? Yeah, whatever word you want to use it. Yeah.

Drake: It's weird.

Marie: This hierarchies hierarchy to me implies multiple people and structure. Right.

Drake: That's right. Well, the weirdest thing about me, chase a Rabbit. While in prose, every word matters. Like every word, every verb, every every adjective, every everything. I'm just like it's everything paints a picture. When I'm in verbal communication. Words don't matter to me at all. And it's just this weird, it's this weird dynamic between my two lives of prose writing and speechwriting are, you know, talking.

Drake: So, yeah, you know, as long as you're getting the meaning of what I'm saying. Yeah, because it's a discussion and we can go back and forth and, and I think that's the reason why I am so focused on the written word, because it's not a discussion, it's a one way flow of information. So if I screw up and I say a word that you don't interpret right, there's no way for me to to correct you.

Drake: Like with this I can say hierarchy, and you go, well, and we go, okay, whatever. Let's let's, let's define this and make sure we're on the same page because it's a discussion. Yeah. So I don't mind, like, I really don't have a lot of loyalty to words when I'm in a discussion, as long as we both know what we're talking about.

Drake: Yeah, we get to the, the, you know, to the endgame. But yeah, power power dynamics, whatever we want to talk about, I think it's important to define that. I think it's important to understand, you know, if you have a friend group who is in charge and, and it's not even in charge of the of the whole.

Drake: So look at Ron, Hermione and.

Marie: Harry.

Drake: And Harry, there are multiple different power dynamics. I mean, Hermione is more in charge of education like. So when it comes to anything that are factual and, you know, history and things that we need to know of why things are the way they are. She holds all the power when it comes to the magic world. Ron holds all the power.

Drake: The other two were muggles like they were. I mean, I know Harry is not a muggle, but he grew up as a muggle, so he, you know, he's not the extra. So when it comes to. What do you mean you don't know what else the Flew Network is like? What do you mean you don't know how to do this?

Drake: That and the other thing. Like these are just things that I lived with my whole life, you know? And it literally happens the moment he meets Ron on the train where he's like, he's like, I got this card. Wait, where do you go? What do you mean, where he go? You're not going to hang out on your car all the time.

Drake: You got other cards he's got to go hang out on like to Ron. He has all the power of that dynamic. And so. So that's what I mean by this this hierarchy of things. It's going to change depending on even what topic we're talking about here. So like with me, when I'm around my friends, I hold all the power when it comes to writing and they hold all the power for everything else because I'm a complete moron of all aspects of life outside of this one thing that I can do.

Drake: So, you know, it's just the way it is.

Marie: So yeah, so there's definitely this that also leads into something that I want to talk about a little later, which is complementary skills. But I do first want to talk about power dynamics more broadly because you like, you can be friends with your parents. Yeah, I know, but. But you become more than at the beginning. It's the power imbalance is vast, like, like when you're five and your parent is the adult.

Marie: Like the Gulf is enormous. It's it's unbridgeable is enormous. Right? When you are 18 and your parent is, you know, presumably at least 15 odd years older than you are. You know, my my mother was 40 years older than I am.

Drake: So that's.

Drake: For zero.

Marie: Yeah, for zero.

Drake: mine was a 16.

Drake: Yeah.

Marie: So, so this but they're somewhat older, right. Right. There's still a fairly vast gulf, but you start becoming friends with them.

Drake: I was the way I've seen it usually works out is you are dependent on your parents until you hit, you know, 13, 14, then you hate them and they're idiots until you're about 23, 24. And then you're like, Wow, I want to thank you. Like, you're kind of cool again. I'll hang out with you again. So that's the power dynamics one there, you're boss two, they're your enemy, and then three, they're your equal.

Drake: So it's this weird kind of wave and that's just obviously generalizing. Not everyone goes to that dynamic, but a lot of humans go through that kind of dynamic.

Marie: I became friends with my well, like, you know, I went to the point of being friends with my mom around when I was when after I finished university around 25, 26. And I think the moment that cemented it forever in my head was we were watching a movie and and they were doing some sort of family discussion or whatever.

Marie: And like there was sexual content on the on the screen and I cannot remember how the topic came up. My mother and father were divorced, but my my mother said something like, you know, your father was actually quite good at that. And without batting an eyelid, I looked at it and went so So I was at least fun to make.

Marie: And she says, Yes, yes, you were. And I was like, okay, we're friends now.

Drake: And I guess if you're lucky, you're with your parents long enough to where you become the the adult and you take care of them. Yeah, because circle life.

Drake: Baby. Yep.

Drake: So yeah, it's and but, but we're writing a story that usually is a small sliver of that time. And so we need to know. I think it's very important to know who, who.

Marie: What, what. So sort of the parental power balance is a is a definite thing by itself, and it's a very shifting thing. And that's why I said these arcs. But there's a parental kind of power imbalance, but there's also a power imbalance with mentorship that closes over time. Yeah, right. So when you first have a mentor, they might be a massive power imbalance.

Marie: Yeah. Even if you talk like us over the past three years when we first met, I knew very little about writing. You knew a lot. Over the three years I've been catching up and I'll power in that power like. And this the thing that people misunderstand about a power imbalance, it doesn't mean force, right? It means one person knows or is more equipped for whatever the thing is and the other person is less equipped.

Marie: And so one person takes the lead in a very natural way, generally speaking, a very natural way. There is, of course, very unhealthy power dynamics, but that's a different different topic.

Drake: Which I think is funny. When you go back and listen to the first probably six months of our podcast, I'm speaking way, way more than you are, but by about six months, like like you just start finding your own. You start, you know, you really come into your own knowledge, your own everything. And so, yeah, it's been great watching.

Marie: But I mean, it's a very it's a very direct illustration of that kind of mentorship power balance changing as the mentee catches the main, you know, because it's impossible for a mentor to remain always ahead of the mentee.

Drake: Like, well, if you're a good mentor, if you're a mentor and you keep them down with that, college professors try to be like, Yeah, but and then in my defense, because this, this conversation is making me feel weird. I mean, I remember our original discussions and your original pitch to me was, you know, you'll be like the sidekick and, you know, I'll be the writer.

Drake: And I said literally, Absolutely not. We are equals from jump, Even if I know more than you about this subject, We're both writers doing it together. And I wouldn't allow it to be.

Marie: No 100% now. So I mean, I don't mean like we had some kind of formalized.

Drake: No, I know, I know.

Marie: I'm just saying, like, it was the it was the natural state of our relationship at that point.

Drake: Right.

Marie: And and so you do need to think about that power dynamic between your characters that you're putting into this non romantic relationship and how that is going to change and why.

Drake: And that's actually a really interesting it wasn't any notes, but that's a really interesting thing. If you're writing a mentor mentee relationship, like one way to decide which way you're going to go is exactly what we just said. If the mentee never catches up to the mentor, then it's probably because the mentor is doing toxic things that are.

Drake: And then maybe that's a great source of conflict where the mentee realizes that what they thought was the person trying to get them ahead is actually trying to keep them down and not allowing them to succeed. I mean, I've said to many, many, many of the people who worked with me, you know, they started off as newer writers.

Drake: I, I just said this to a woman just the other day. I was like, remember, don't forget about us little guys. When you're, you know, on top of the pile, like. And she started off, you know, she started coming to me as a student knowing very, very little. And now, you know, she is doing her thing. And so like, but I, I find no better.

Drake: I mean, one of the guys in the peanut gallery said this dude just this morning, because it's the same thing. I think the best thing that I love about teaching writing, my favorite moments are when you have someone come and you go, I want to write like this and you're like, okay, this is what you have to do.

Drake: And then next week it's like you're still not doing it. That's what you have to do in the next week. You're still not doing this, which have to do it next week. She's not doing a like for months and months and months. You're editing the exact same stuff and you're saying the exact same things. You're saying them different ways, trying to get it to click and then all of a sudden they show up and what they read is nothing like what they brought last week.

Drake: It's I don't know. I don't I talked about this last night in the writer's room that it's just this weird thing that happened last night. It's this weird. It's almost like knowledge. It's like a rubber band. And so the writer's in the middle of it and they're learning more and more and more, but they're not moving forward. The rubber band is moving forward, but they're not.

Drake: And then all of a sudden they get shot forward and then they're just they catch up to the rubber band. But then, you know, again, the rubber band starts moving forward without them. So they're I don't know, it's just weird and I love it. I think it's the best thing about my days are when that happens. So it is fantastic.

Marie: Yeah. But yeah, so, so power dynamics fully fleshed out the characters and that that arc I think are are pretty key component. It's yeah. In my opinion for creating relationships.

Drake: And that will give you some hints on when you are running a mentor mentee character how to run the mentor character. You know are they genuinely trying to help their their mentee? If you have someone who's willing to die, you know, like an Obi-Wan Kenobi who's like, Well, the last lesson I need to teach you is.

Drake: I feel.

Drake: Like that's that's a mentor willing to. Yeah, do it all for their student as opposed to, you know, them discovering that the mentor may not have their best interest at heart. I can't think of any examples except for in Chinese cinema. Like there's a lot of Chinese kung fu movies where the student learned that the master was actually not really helping them.

Drake: They were because, you know, they had all these students show up and they were cooking all the food and cleaning all the place and and doing all the stuff. And and, you know, and actually they played with it in Karate Kid where he thinks you're just doing this to get me to clean your car and you're just doing this to give me like and then he's like show me wax on.

Drake: And you know, then he, he transitioned that into why it was good for him to do this stuff. But I forgot they did play with that where he did confront him. I said, You're an evil mentor. You're only using me to clean your stuff.

Marie: I've definitely I know where I've seen it, but it was the villains using it. There's a there's a writer called Trudi Canavan, who wrote The Black Magician trilogy, and the villainous magicians would keep, like a whole little stable of apprentices around them. And whenever they needed power, they would just slice one of the apprentices open and steal their power.

Marie: Yeah.

Drake: Yeah. I've seen it many times. On villains. Yeah, I was trying to think of a time where the story, you know, had the mentor be that. Yeah, kind of. Because then that's a cool thing for that. For the P.O.V. to get over because now they have to discover that they're not in a healthy situation and then also overcome that because, you know, that's also just like with everybody else in an unhealthy relationship, you have that terror of, Yeah, but the devil I know.

Drake: Yeah, I know. It's not a good relationship for me, but I know it like I know what I'm getting out of this. And that's why so many people stay in toxic relationships because it's still, you know, versus the devil you don't know. So that's a good plot. Somatic arc and as well for that relationship. So yeah, all sorts of and that's and again, it's just all everything we're going to talk about is all about fleshing out ahead of time these things.

Drake: So I guess you know since we have well that's the relationship dynamics and you know finish this chemistry list kind of the the the way they treat each other is another part of that chemistry. And then that chemistry becomes all sorts of things. Depending on what you're doing. It could be a source of conflict, a source of growth, a source of humor, maybe even a source of intrigue.

Drake: Like with Harry Potter, when her mind had the time turner, she became very like the others were like, You're not doing something right for us, are you? You know, there was a little bit of that. Are you are you doing, conflict, yeah. Are you doing bad things? You know what's going on here? Because I'm not see in your day to day stuff.

Drake: So all of these things, I just want to kind of define that. That's what we're talking about here. These are all things we're going to go through of ways to build that that relation, that dynamics between them, which gives us all these benefits as storytellers.

Drake: Yeah.

Drake: So when we get into that, I mean, because we're really just going to be focusing on secondary character at this point and an important tertiary character in relation to, say, secondary characters. What do you think? You already said your first one, which is you need to know where the relationship starts and where it ends so that you know that there's going to be an arc in that relation.

Drake: It can't be static, it can't be, you know, I hate you and I hate you. I mean, even look at Malfoy and I don't know what's going on in Harry Potter today. Like, it's the only part of my mind. But like Malfoy, you know, we start off as this I hate you, but we end with a I don't really like you.

Drake: Yeah, they, you know, it definitely changed.

Marie: Or, you know, Joffrey Baratheon in from like Game of Thrones. We start off with I Hate You and we start off with die, piggy die, die.

Drake: It just becomes more like, Right.

Drake: Which is an arc.

Drake: It is.

Marie: An arc.

Drake: So yeah, the next piece.

Marie: Where if this if there's one thing that George Morton excels at, it is making villains that I want to see dead.

Drake: Which is why I hate what he did with Jamie. I liked hating him. I liked hating his guts. And now, you know, you get in a book foreword, you're like.

Drake: Is actually that that I don't like feeling this way.

Drake: I don't like feeling that he's not a bad person. I don't want that. And it is it is actually one of the things that bothered me about that fourth book. I did not like that I started to like Jamie because I really enjoyed hating him. He was a great I mean, screwing his sister, throwing small children off of roofs, killing the king because he's saving his own skin.

Drake: Like these are all things that I want to hate. And then you're like, Now you're going to make me like him. And it was rough.

Drake: It was rough.

Marie: I guess I never did that with Joffrey. Joffrey is just like you. You can hate him for your heart's content and cheer at the purple wedding.

Drake: Right?

Drake: Exactly. But that leads us to your thing that you've already brought up. So I'll pitch it over to you. And I remember now what I call that. I call it strengths and weaknesses. So a character strengths should overcome another character's weakness. That's why I was saying balance. You called it complementary.

Marie: Complementary. They should they should complement each other. So and what that means. So if you if you're a Han Solo and Luke Skywalker are actually really good example of this. So Luke is young and idealistic and han is experienced, but that makes him cynical. And the two together bring together a great dynamic for overcoming the story's plot with Luke's kind of, you know, enthusiasm and his naivete and driving forward, but sometimes too much, sometimes in excess and hans kind of more experienced take and a slower look.

Marie: And also then but then he's cynicism can sometimes take him completely out as it did you know in the final.

Drake: Yeah yeah and it was Luke's impact on Han that made him turn around and come back.

Drake: Yeah.

Marie: Of course. But yeah, the other classic example is, is Samwise, Gamgee and Frodo, who are very much complementary.

Drake: So even, you know, I already went through the dynamics of Ron and Harry. You know, each one have their strengths and weaknesses and the other can have strengths that cover up the weaknesses. And that's a lot of reasons why people I mean, I, you know, me, my wife Mary, 24 years. And I think one of the biggest reasons why we are so compatible is that we're completely not compatible.

Drake: And our strengths and weaknesses, we're almost exactly opposite on, you know, we have very little overlap on the things that I'm strong on. She's also strong on. We have a lot of overlap in our interests, but very little over lap on I mean, just in the 26, 27 years we've been together, like there's this huge divide of late in life, like these things in life I don't even look at I don't think about I don't touch, I don't even know, like my wife has no idea even how to get to our bank or what we have in our bank or because she cannot like I tried in the beginning because, you know, I try to

Drake: be with everything. I'm like, you know, you should also pay some bills. And she just literally broke down as a blubbering, you know, she's like, I can't take this. It's too much stress. And then like, especially back then when we were, you know, young couples and making every penny count and trying to figure out how to pay the electric bill or whatever, it just wasn't her strength.

Drake: She just doesn't she can't deal with it. And then there's so many things that she is my rock for.

Drake: And so that's what we're looking for. I mean, that's that's a natural way to connect your characters, is I need this thing that I don't have. You provide that. Wow, we should hang out because, you know, I mean, the Bugs Bunny or the Bugs Bunny dogs, you have the one little dog and you have the one big dog.

Drake: And you know, why are they friends? Because they both bring something to the table that the other just doesn't have.

Marie: I do want to give one warning about this kind of like that. This is important. And you do need you do need strength and weakness is covert, but unless this is what you're actually going for, try to avoid writing purely transactional relationships. Certain, you know, because trans, okay. So there are people in this world who have completely transactional relationships.

Marie: I, I get it. I, I don't work that way. So I don't understand what they get out of those friendships, you know, or how that is a friendship to them. But but that doesn't feel like a real friend. At least it doesn't to me feel like a real friendship when everything is transactional.

Drake: Yeah.

Marie: What do I get out of you? Like that feels like a villainous tradition.

Drake: Yeah.

Drake: Yeah. And I hope that's not way I came off. Like my wife's relationship. We are together because our interests align, and we have so much in common that matter. Yeah. The way we view life, the way we view family, the way we view marriage, the way we view that stuff. I'm talking not just the day to day.

Marie: Like. No, no. I don't mean to say that you came off like that. I was just I was I was just reminded of a comment that somebody left on my YouTube channel that had me staring at it for hours, thinking like, I wonder if you're a psychopath. Like, it was the only thing I could think of because they were like, Well, if women didn't get guaranteed child support, they would have to be very obedient to their men, or their men would just leave them with their children.

Marie: And then the women would be stuck raising their children alone. And I was like, I don't know what to do with this comment.

Drake: Yeah, somebody who has a father who left without he only made his very first child support payment on me.

Drake: Yeah, like but.

Marie: My father to like.

Drake: Like I don't see how they get guaranteed child support so you know it. Yeah.

Marie: Yeah. But yeah it was, it was such a transaction.

Drake: I also want to say I want to go on record and say this this is, this is officially me stating this on the record.

Drake: Yeah.

Drake: Never once did I stay with my wife. So that I wouldn't have to pay child support.

Drake: Yes. Once. That's the most ridiculous thing.

Drake: Did that ever come into my head?

Drake: It was. So I'd like to.

Drake: Leave her, but then I'd have to pay that damn child support.

Marie: That was such a weird statement. I was just like, How transactional do you have to.

Drake: View the world? All right.

Marie: This is how you break down a romantic relationship. Never mind a non romantic. Well, I mean like.

Drake: And now that my kids are basically 21 and 22, like that is, you know, now definitely isn’t a thing. But like, yeah, now one time in our marriage have I ever thought, wow, if it just wasn't for that, you know, mandatory child support, I'd be on the road not once just saying that's official.

Marie: Because because she didn't treat me nice.

Drake: Like what?

Drake: Just saying. You can quote me on that. That's that's an official thing. Anyway, that's a weird turn of events.

Drake: All right the.

Marie: Comments been bugging me comments been living rent free in my hate to be honest.

Drake: With Yeah.

Drake: Yeah it's always fun. All right. So strengths and weaknesses they should just you should think about that because you need you know, when we talk about character development, we want characters with weaknesses. You know, a character who has no flaws is just not relatable. You know, They're just too perfect in every way. And then and that's where you get, I think, a lot of the Mary Sue secondary characters, because why wouldn't you be a mary Sue to someone who is perfect in every way?

Drake: Yeah. You know.

Marie: I think one one of the good ways to think about this is you don't want to have a Batman and Robin because nobody wants to be Robin, you know. But Batman's there and he's full fledged suit and Robin's wearing a Speedo, a with an R on it. You know what I mean?

Drake: Yeah, but that's a hold over. I mean, that's the problem with some of these IPS is they're a holdover from, you know, the twenties and thirties and was like, I don't know anything about this whole story thing. Let's just do you know, what we would call tropes today. They didn't have tropes like then, they didn't exist because they hadn't been made yet.

Marie: So I mean, yes and no, some of it so, so I think part of it like things with Batman and Robin and so on, I think part of it was too much leaning into the power dynamic of the the there was there was too much uneven power dynamic because of the the time. And also the time was it was it was an unequal time.

Marie: I don't just mean unequal between men and women or between races, but I mean, everything was unequal. You still had countries that had nobility where they were like, these families are born bitter, you know, as though humans can be literally born bitter like, you know. So it was a very unequal time. And I think those power dynamics are a product of that.

Marie: Yeah. Where you have like an extreme and a junior and the power dynamic between them never changes.

Drake: Right? Which is why as we move forward in time, you get more of the stories about Robin and, you know, Dark Wing and you know all of that because yeah, because society evolves and our stories will evolve with us. So yeah, that's the strengths and weaknesses,

Drake: think. And I think that goes along with my next point because they're kind of very much related.

Drake: There also has to be a reason for the relationship, and I think this needs to go more than just there's a reason why we're together. What I mean by this is

Drake: I'm going to go fight a demon that may eat me. Why the crap Now I have to do it because I was born to a family of witches that, like, literally were cursed.

Drake: And if I don't do this, I will be a slave to this demon as an adult. Okay, great. Why are you coming with me? Yeah.

Marie: What's your stakes in this thing?

Drake: You're just.

Drake: Like. I just, like, Drake enough. I'm not going to go. It's going to be awesome.

Marie: like? Yeah I'm going to go carry water. So Drake and fight a.

Drake: What?

Drake: Even though I might get eaten too, if I think there needs to be a, an actual motivational, plot driven reason why your secondary characters are willing to do this. And it could be whatever. I mean, Batman and Robin, why is Robin going to danger? Because he's the mentee. He's trying to learn to be the next Batman, although it never really happened.

Drake: But it's not.

Marie: Gonna change like that. They're physically incapable of actually.

Drake: Right, exactly.

Drake: But that, you know, that is something that's there in Harry Potter's case, even though Harry's the one that's been marked by the you know, by Voldemort all of the wizarding world is in danger. So both her Mini and Ron are going to lose big time if Voldemort wins. So they have a personal stake in this fight as much as anyone else.

Drake: And when you get into Epic stuff, that becomes much easier because of the fact that the whole world is going to die if we don't do this. So why am I helping you? Because I'm going to die too. Like, exactly. He sure the demon eats your soul, but after eat your soul, he kills all the rest of us or dominates us or whatever.

Drake: So I still don't want that to happen. So that becomes easier. But I still think you need to have.

Marie: A need to have stakes. They need to have investment in the in the plot, the secondary characters that I just need to be fully fleshed out. And the stakes in the plot can't be, I want to save my friend's life, right? But that is an ancillary stake that will get them over a hump. But it can't be the only stake.

Drake: Right.

Marie: And that's it can be a romantic interest only stake.

Drake: Right.

Marie: But you if that's the if that is the friends only stake, that is a friendship of the you know, of the ages.

Drake: It's like.

Drake: Well, a great example of that would be stranger things like we do want to save our friend.

Drake: Yes.

Drake: That is kind of the original, but as we learn stuff, we start realizing, this is the destruction of the whole world to the saving of the one first boy. I can't remember his name for whatever reason.

Marie: Yeah, the season one. The season one.

Drake: Right? Yeah.

Drake: That's great.

Drake: But now, yeah.

Drake: It grows.

Marie: And it's. But it starts with like, we want to save them. Then they discover what's involved and, and a lot of them are like back away because it's too much.

Drake: Right?

Marie: Right. You're like, yes, you want to save your friend. But I mean we're talking about like, you know, the upside down is I like Drake.

Drake: I didn't realize he was going to get eaten by a demon.

Drake: Yeah.

Drake: Like, I just thought he owed, like, you know, some money to a bully.

Drake: You know, like, I could have lent them some money, But I think this is a little. This is.

Marie: Extreme. You.

Drake: So. But that's when I tell you that after me, they enslave you to so and then.

Marie: And then, of course, the stakes change again.

Drake: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Drake: So I just think that's important. I think a lot of people don't do that with their secondary characters. They're just there because they're there. You right. What are some they have something else for us.

Marie: Think just before we move on from this, I do also feel like if you're going to build such an intense friendship, it behooves you to have the secondary character involved in the Overcome. One of the key moments of Luke and Hahn's friendship is when Han shoots Darth Vader and gives Luke the run right. He's involved in the Overcome.

Marie: One of the key moments of Samwise is when he carries Frodo into the cave. When he goes back to, you know, like he is involved in the Overcome. If you're going to invest that deeply in a friendship, it is a good idea to build the character into the overcome.

Drake: And this leads me to the one thing gets me in trouble a lot, which is that doesn't mean that the secondary character should do the overcome.

Drake: Yes.

Drake: So I still.

Marie: And again, I know you don't like The Lord of the Rings ever come.

Drake: In. I don't like the the trilogy of Star Wars Overcome where Darth Vader ends up defeating the emperor. I think those didn't need to happen, and I think they would have been stronger if you had allowed the main character to do it. But again, we won't go down that rabbit hole. Yeah.

Marie: Yeah, we, we've, we've.

Drake: I just want to warn having the secondary characters be involved in the Overcome is much different than having them do the Overcome.

Drake: Yes.

Drake: Because they what I follow this main character. Why didn't you just have the secondary character be your main character and let me run them all the way to the end. Let the you know, let Harry be the if for mine, he kills Voldemort. Then why wasn't I follow in her mind this whole time? Like let Harry be a secondary character?

Drake: So anyway.

Marie: 100%. Well.

Drake: And a lot.

Marie: Actually, you know, in J.K. Rowling's like to do that point in the first books, overcome with a chase like Ron does the chess set and Hermione does this. But it's ultimately Harry who standing in front of the Mirror of Desire right.

Drake: Right. And that's what I think that's what you want out of your secondary characters. They're involved. They know when to to get there. I my my favorite one of the stuff that I've done is still in this nursing magic major fairy tale. So pont is your secondary character. She thinks that she's a part of a story. She knows that snurse is a hero.

Drake: She knows that she's a secondary character, but she thinks that she's the comic relief. And so the whole story, she is acting that role because that's what she believes. And at the end she realizes that she's not that she's actually supposed to be something else. Don't say what it is because it's important to the Overcome. It's also very sad.

Drake: But, you know, she still doesn't defeat and she doesn't try a massive thing because, again, she's a very meta joke throughout the entire thing. She literally is calling out writer terms as she's going through the movie. So at the end, she doesn't go, I was mistaken. I'm actually the hero. I will kill the wizard. You know, that's not what happens.

Drake: She goes, I'm not the comic relief. I actually need to be the one that buys time for him to do his job because he's still the hero. And so that's that's also me playing against the I mean, I did that on purpose, too, as a as a little rebellion to the whole, see this is what the secondary character does.

Drake: They stay secondary. They don't ever go, wait, no, the hero. Like, anyway, enough of that. But that leads me to another thing that, that I think a lot of people actually I think a lot of people do this. But again, planning is the key in my opinion. But one of the ways that we accomplish all this stuff exactly like we do at the very end of this is you need to plan and look for opportunities to have strong bonding moments.

Drake: Now, this could be all sorts of different things. That could be bonding moments where they're having fun and they are growing closer together, but by bonding moments. And maybe that's a misleading thing. I just mean moments that define the relationship. So it could be a huge fight where one of them leaves. I mean, I think one of the big bonding moments and again, I know it's not the right term whatever you want to say, arc moments is the Luke Skywalker Han Solo in the rebel base where, you know, Luke is just I can't what do you mean you're not going to.

Drake: This is what we.

Drake: Are here for.

Drake: We're here to do this fight and defeat this empire. What do you mean? You're going to take your money and go do your own personal, private crap? Like that's a huge moment for their relationship. It's not. And that's why I said bonding is probably not the right word for because they're definitely not bonding. But it is the thing that drives Han because, you know, even though it happens off screen, you know, he's flying away going, no, I don't.

Drake: Stupid kid. He's just idealistic. I need to do this. You're going to die if I No, no, I'm going to do this. And if they die, they die. So they made they're like, you know, that discussion is going. And then he's fine.

Drake: Like, yeah, like,

Drake: Damnit. you just get that off screen and that's fine.

Marie: But you also get a lot of bonding of Han and Luke before that moment. And I know that, you know, it's a short time period, etc., etc., because they barely met and so on. But they do have moments of bonding, you know, when they're rescuing Princess Leia, when they're on the ship, when, you know, when she when she kisses Luke, when, you know, it's it's all bonding experiences when they're shooting at the empire, etc., etc..

Drake: So I have to leave the worm yes.

Marie: Although I think that's I think that's episode two.

Drake: is it.

Drake: Yeah.

Marie: It's the the worm I think is. Yeah. But yeah. So I mean there's a lot of bonding moments between them and before we get to that pivotal moment where they have the conflict in the hangar and the conflict hits because of the bonding that preceded it.

Drake: Yeah, 100%.

Marie: It's like, like a plot arc. You have to have ups and downs leading up to New Pinnacle.

Drake: Yeah, well, what I said about porn makes me want to talk about one of my other points, which this I do think a lot of writers miss. I don't think they ever think about what happens off screen.

Drake: And I think you're secondary characters to be real. So when I'm plotting, the funny thing is when I'm on my plot boards, I've got my top line, which is my P.O.V. character, but I'm actually plotting out all of my secondary characters as well, and I'm plotting the moments that are happening to them that are not going to be in the story, you know, like that that happens scene.

Drake: I would plot that scene. I'd be like, Here's where Han has an argument with himself about, No, they made the decision, I'm not getting involved. It's a suicide mission, dammit. I got to turn around. Like I would plot that. I think you need to think about what your secondary character doing when they're not with your main characters. They have lives, they have goals, they have things that they're going to do.

Drake: So we talk a lot about sci fi fantasy, but you know, we're doing a high school drama. Well, the best friend, you know, has got parents. You know, she's got homework. She's got, you know, maybe trying to get a boyfriend of her own or whatever, like all of these things, even though they're not the story we're telling because the narrating character's telling their story, this character is still doing something.

Drake: And so while it doesn't get put into the book, a lot of the times you still should mention that it's there and these are quick. It's like, you know, what did you do last night? I got fight with my mom, you know, usual thing. And we're not going to tell that story, but it's like, she has a.

Drake: Mom.

Drake: Like, and they're fighting.

Drake: Like, yeah.

Drake: That's a life. And so it these off screen moments for your secondary characters are going to go a long way of making them feel like they're their own individual people. Then you combine it with all the stuff we've been talking about. They have their own opinions. They they have their own goals and desires. They have a reason for being there.

Drake: All these things. And then you start going, also they're doing things that I'm not even see, and you let that bleed into the story. Those are important moments to really flesh out that relationship because, you know, maybe, you know, they're like, I, you know, she comes back and she says that to her girlfriend. She's like, yeah, I'm like, well, my mom is always, you know, I really wish I had the relationship you and your mom had or have, you know, if that's the story we're telling or, you know, the character's like, Yeah, fought with my bitch of a mom, too, last night.

Drake: Like, you know, whatever. Whatever the story that we're telling, it could be anything. But that's where we can get that. Those moments that they're bonding or seeing the differences between the two or whatever we're doing.

Marie: Yeah. And yeah, I fully agree with, with all of that. And I don't know if you want to explain your matrix here.

Drake: Let's hold off on that. Okay. Do you have anything else on tips? Cause I got one or two more tips.

Marie: I think the only thing is one of yours which is moving from binary to trinary.

Drake: Okay. Yeah. Go. Or. Or.

Marie: No. No. So the one of the things that you have to bear in mind now, some friendships are better is binary. Okay, but tri, trinary relationships. 3 a 3 person relationship comes with a built in conflict because what happens is instead of two people being trapped in a he said, she said situational. He said whatever the configuration is, because you have a third person, it becomes a question of bargaining, right?

Marie: So we have beef. These two have beef. They go and bargain with this one to try and get them to side with their side of the argument. And that creates an instantaneous vehicle for conflict.

Drake: We are so hyper, even in non romantic relationships, you still have room for jealousy. They did it in. They did it in Stranger Things in a couple of ways. One, when 11 lived with the dude, the other dudes were jealous that he had a chick living with him, you know, at 12 years of age, 13 years of age or whatever.

Drake: So there was the jealousy of that. But you also had the jealousy from the one kid who parents wouldn't let them play as much as the others. So even without the romantic side of it, you still had this. You guys spend more time together than I do. I'm the outsider of our group and the other guys are like, No, you're not.

Drake: You're just as important, all of us. And it's like, So even stuff like that, you have so much opportunities when you have more than just a binary, you know, relationship. And then but I mean, look at the big IPs. You know, we have we already talked about the Han Luke Leia trifecta. We talked about the Harry Ron Hermione trifecta.

Drake: But even like Lord of the Rings, we have really a trifecta there because we have samwise. We have wow, there's a couple of different ways you go Samwise is Frodo and Gollum, or you can go Samwise, Frodo, and then Mary and Pippin are kind of one, you know, because they're just inseparable little things. But that's still kind of like when they first start traveling.

Drake: It's like a trifecta relationship because Mary and Pippin are so similar at the beginning of the story. They're kind of like two peas in a pod that are doing their own thing, that are bringing in that conflict, that are very different from the Samwise and the Frodo. And so even that center, even though there's four, it really is just three.

Drake: In the very beginning of that, you know, Mary and Pippin don't become their own entity until they.

Marie: Are separate to do. But yeah, I mean, it, it does, it does give you an extra dynamic when you introduce a third person because it creates that setup of, of the potential for bargaining and conflict. And as you say, it doesn't matter whether that is romantic or whether it is non romantic, it's it's the same.

Drake: Yeah.

Drake: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously if you're doing a romance, having that third rival, you know, she's trying to get the boyfriend and he's looking at this other chick and, you know, but they're all friends.

Marie: The resolution is we're all happily together in a threesome, like.

Drake: Now always works for, you know, certain people, but it doesn't have.

Drake: I’ve written a threesome.

Drake: Anyway, alright, getting too personal.

Marie: There's no I mean, I've written a threesome couple like my old priestess.

Drake: Thing. Right?

Drake: Exactly. Which is awesome. Yeah. There's two things that I actually want to talk about before we get into the. The the last thing that you were just mentioning one to get to, and maybe this is a reason why I never think about the toxic relationship it's that you kind of warned about earlier. One of the things that I think is very important to always bring in to relationships is sacrifice.

Drake: Your characters should sacrifice something for their relationships. Both sides now, for me, I live my life under the mantra, and this is every relationship that I and our relationship, business, relationships, me and my wife's relationship, I always and this reason why I don't allow drama in my life. I say drama is only on the page. Never in the real world is because I only allow relationships in my life where both parties are living by the mantra of, I'm going to try to give you more than you give me.

Drake: And I'm a firm believer if you're in a relationship where you're trying to give the other person more than they're giving you, and they're trying to give you more than you're giving them, it's kind of a you create relationship like because both are focused on the other person's happiness, focused on the other person's success, focus on the other person's gaining financial resources, whatever the relationship is.

Drake: And I think those are the best relationships. But in drama, you know, we have that element of sacrifice, and I think that's important to help build those relationships. What it what is one character sacrificing for the other? What are they willing to sacrifice for? The other, you know, is the mentor willing to die for the last lesson, to springboard the mentee into the place that they need to?

Drake: You know, these are the things that I think are important to think about. What are they willing are they willing to sacrifice, you know, their relationship? So like in the last Spider-Man movie, you have the Asian dude that is Spider-Man's friend and Spider-Man saying, I want to sit next to Mary Jane. I want to sit there, so I want to sit next to him.

Drake: So you need to sit next to this horrible girl. And he's like, You know what? Sure, I'll spend an 11 hour flight next to a girl that I don't want to be next. And now it works out well for him because they're boyfriend girlfriend at the end of the flight. But he's still sacrificed, even though the sacrifice turned out to be good for him, he was still willing to like, you know what? Alright fine.

Drake: I want to sit next to you because being next to my best friend for 11 hours on a flight is much better than being next to some strange girl that I don't want to be with. But I'm willing to do that. Sacrifice. You have something to say?

Marie: I do. I think one of the best sacrifices in, like the movie world ever for friendship is in Thelma and Louise.

Drake: yeah.

Drake: I made a call earlier.

Drake: Today because I was.

Marie: That was a great sacrifice.

Drake: It's the beginning where she sacrifices her. She had never broken the law. And, yeah, holding a gun and putting up against the side of a cop's head.

Drake: Yeah. She's like, She's going to giving up.

Marie: Her life, her free split, free criminal, everything to go with her friend Jordan. I think across the countryside, escaping to Mexico was.

Drake: And then they both want to sacrifice their lives.

Drake: I think it.

Marie: Was.

Drake: Yeah.

Drake: Well, yeah, I mean, that is, that is, you know, it's it's just that that but it.

Marie: Was a great that was a great example by the way, if you want to do yourself a favor and watch a movie with like really good friendship as well, like Thelma and Louise is.

Drake: It is to you. It is top, top tier.

Drake: So just think about that. And we write drama. We're not writing real life. We are writing drama. We're writing and exaggeration of real life. That's that's why remember, it's escapism for our readers. They want to come and live something they can't live in their real world. And so sacrifice is one of those things that really upped the stakes.

Drake: And the last thing I want to talk about before the Four Corners, I think this is important. I think you should you should understand that there is a love language that everyone has. And I think it's important to work out the love language of your characters because, you know, some friends will be more physically affectionate. You know, they want to hug when they see them.

Drake: They want to, you know, whatever some and we're talking about non non romantic relationships. So, you know, I'm using the word love language. The love language is still I know I do favors. That's my love language or I do gifts. I'm a gift person or, you know, whatever. I just spend time with them. That's, you know, another form of the love language.

Drake: There's all sorts of different ways to show your affection for somebody. And then again, we're talking non romantic affection, But but it's still that same thing. And I think that if you figure that out and you be consistent with it, it makes for more realistic feeling characters because they're like, this is the type of person this is, this person shows their affection.

Drake: And when you're all over the board or you know, when the friend is showing all these different forms of love languages, it doesn't feel real because that's not how people are. And so I think that if you define their love language, how do they show that they care for someone else, either romantically, non, romantically, whatever, And then you can be consistent sort of like if they have a speech tick or if they have a you know, if they if they have a way of gesture.

Marie: Or some some sort of Yeah.

Drake: It's the same thing. And once you lock into that it lets the readers start to get comfortable knowing these characters. And I think it's especially important with your secondary characters because of the fact that we're never inside their heads. So we can only show the reader a secondary character by what they say and what they do. And so if they're if every time they show up, I mean, look at your favorite show, Ted Lasso.

Drake: Yes. What was his love language.

Marie: way we would rock up with the cookies.

Drake: He was a gift giver.

Marie: Yeah, he was a gift giver.

Drake: That was how he showed. And I mean, look, he did it for everybody. Yeah, he always had. I mean, even like the team with the sign, that was his gift to the to the team. Like, I'm giving you this thing. Like, that was his love line. And, and it painted that character all the way through. And they looked for little ways to constantly show that's how he shows affection.

Drake: And so that's a great you know, that's a great thing. And it and it really does have readers connect to these character. Now, obviously, Ted Lasso is the main character, but I'm saying you should do it for everybody, not just, you know, you should only do it for the main characters well, but your secondary characters, understanding their love language, is going to help you run that character in a much more realistic way, as opposed to just they show up with cookies one day and then they show up kissing and then the other day and then they they show up doing a favor for them the next day and they show up, you know, giving them

Drake: money the next day and blah, blah, blah, blah. We have all these different love languages that we have. And so honing in on that and figuring that out for your secondary and church and then primary character's not your tertiary, but you're secondary primary characters, other important tertiary characters. I mean, Mom, how was what's Mom's love language? You know, what's if, if brother's only in it for a couple of times because he's not really a part of the story, but he's still that important to the character.

Drake: I'm probably going to go in and figure out what their love language is. It's a part of my character breakdown sheet, you know, for when I'm doing my character breakdowns, I want to know how that character likes to show their feelings toward other people. Anything else when I do the story?

Marie: Grid No, I think we've covered the bases, lets do the storytelling.

Drake: So all of those are ways to help build secondary characters so they feel more real and the relationships feel more real between them. But I want to go a step further because I call this the matrix of the story, matrix of the theme, whatever you want to say. I've heard it called the Force, The Four

Drake: Corners of Storytelling.

Drake: That's a movie term.

Drake: When we're playing with a theme, we have two sides of that theme. So like we look at Star Wars, Star Wars is one I use in my class. Star Wars has. Should you believe in faith to save you or should you believe in technology to say And the character sits in the middle of that and.

Drake: So what I look for in relationships

Drake: are not binary relationships. So normally everyone's like, I have my my protagonist, which has an antagonist, which means they're opposite of what they're trying to do. So you have, you know, if Luke is trying to, you know, trust in faith, then the antagonist should be somebody who hates faith, who's trying to bury faith, destroy faith or whatever.

Drake: That's not in the movie. That if that's the definition of an antagonist, then there's no antagonist in Star Wars because that's not the definition of an antagonist. Or it doesn't have to be. It can be. But now you have this binary good versus evil kind of thing. So Michael Bay. Michael Bay doesn't have four corners in his stories.

Drake: He has a very linear one side versus the other side. That's it. The reason why I think having four corners, having these four quadrants, this matrix of your theme is so important is because it really gives you a lot of room for relationships. So if we have Luke Skywalker in the middle and Luke has to decide, should he rely on his faith to save him at the end, in other words, to force something that's that's a power greater than himself or should he rely on technology to save him?

Drake: That means we have two sides on each side. You're going to have a positive to that side and a negative to that side. So on the side of faith, we have Obi-Wan Kenobi. You should use the force because it's a good thing. It does all these great things for you and it literally is good for the universe, it's good for everybody and all this other stuff.

Drake: And then we have Darth Vader who's like, Nope, it is a very selfish way to get a lot of power. Nothing. Nothing can beat the power of the dark side. And so you actually have this positive look of one side of the theme and a negative look at this one side of the theme. And so you have Luke, who's supposed to and that's the side that he's supposed to end up on, but there's both good and bad, and he's kind of struggle with why do I really want to go this way?

Drake: Because there's good and bad over there. And then we have the other side, which is technology, which is a side we're going to prove that we're not doing. But there's positives and negatives to that, too. So that allows us to create characters and things. So we have Han Solo who's like kid. Nothing beats a good blaster like hokey religions no.

Drake: No you technology and I'm good and I'm showing you how good technology is. And then you have the Empire who's like, Yeah, we can use technology to blow up entire planets like, like. And so now you have Luke going, Well, wait a minute, maybe I should choose technology because there's good over here, you know, But there is also bad over here.

Drake: And so when you look at this dynamic of Star Wars, it doesn't have because normally the line would be diagonal if we're looking at the four corners. So on the top left corner, you have the protagonist. What we're trying to prove, you know, faith, is what's going to save us the force. And so the antagonist should be opposite of that.

Drake: So really, if we had just looked at a binary plot thread for Star Wars, we would have had somebody who was trying to kill all Jedi, who was trying to suppress the force, the knowledge of it. And we've seen this a million times. And, you know, magic. you should learn magic. And it's good. No, that we've outlawed magic.

Drake: And we will kill any mage that that even thinks about talking about magic, If you say the word magic, you're going to jail. And so that's that that binary thing. And so, yeah, what you have is you have this binary thing, but if you expand that to understand that the side that is against magic, there's a positive to that.

Drake: What is it? What is the positive to banning magic? Can I create characters that represent that that caused the protagonist to go, Wait a minute, maybe I should be against magic? I mean, because I really respect I have a good relationship with this entity, this person, this whatever. And then you can also have Wait a minute, magic is bad because if magic is good, then what's the con?

Drake: What's the negative to that? You Why did it get banned? And so that's what I look for in my stories. I want to find and not all of them, you know, in the novella that I just wrote for Harn World, the carnage of characters that just dropped, it's a very binary. I mean, it's a bunch of orcs sacking a city.

Drake: It's a short story or, you know, a novella. So I have a lot of time anyway. But it's literally two sides, and I don't have a lot of time to develop that. But I but that's short form fiction as opposed to long form fiction, like a movie or a novel. And so that's the last thing I think to think about with your relationships is remember you're telling a story and your story is about your theme.

Drake: And your theme has two sides to it, but it actually has four sides to it because there's a positive to the positive side of the theme, the one you're trying to prove and a negative, you know, So it doesn't matter. You know, I'm trying to prove that marriage is the best way to live your life. Okay, great. There are definitely toxic marriages out there so we can come up with things that show that our story and yeah, okay.

Drake: Maybe dying alone as a cat woman is bad. And maybe that's our that's our antagonist in this. But there's also positives to being a single person, you know? And so can I come up with a character, I come up with a relationship that my that my character has that now shows the positive side of the side of the theme that I'm trying to disprove.

Drake: And so that is what I call the matrix of a theme or make your restore Again. I've heard it called the for the Four Corners of story, which is what they use in in the movie industry. And I think that is very important to think about when you're thinking about relationships, because that's where these relationships are going to come from.

Marie: Yeah. And I think that

Marie: that is a good note on which to end this podcast, and we will see you soon for another one bye.

Drake: Good day to our esteemed listeners. I'm Marie Melanie and it has been a pleasure guiding you through the nuances of writing and worldbuilding.

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